\n<\/p>\n
Rima: <\/strong>So when I say six months of research, it means that this is the budget that was planned for that. But most of my work takes about… The longer pieces that I do, they take quite a lot of length of research, so we\u2019re talking two to three years actually. So with Think Much. Cry Much.<\/em>, I wanted to work about border crossing or borders in general because during that period of time in 2015 and until this day when we talk about borders, we\u2019re directly only speaking about refugees. And even though what\u2019s at play is a much larger system obviously, it\u2019s not only state system, but we\u2019re talking about the media, we\u2019re talking about the workers who actually come and put the fence, we\u2019re talking about the technology part.<\/p>\n For example, especially at the EU, they develop this company called Frontex, and they were developing this weird kind of technology and robotics to go to the border and to stop the people from entering. So when I talk about research it meant\u2014and the police of course, and the media\u2014so during that research part, I met with a lot of asylum seekers and refugees, but also I tried to go and see to different countries. So, the funders or the festivals that produced that work, I told them that I want them to create residencies for me in each place. And because they were all in Europe and all had a say, if you want, or a quota for refugees. So in each place I went to meet refugees or asylum seekers, but also I was trying to meet with train drivers, with policemen, with people who put the fence on or the fence company.<\/p>\n Or for example, I was fascinated at that period with instructions, like how the system in a way create very minimal instructions. So for six months I\u2019ve been like, wow, following arrows or at the airplane, I would take all of these safety instructions and trying to understand safety for who, safety for what, what is the safety. Like when they search you at the airport, the security measures, they always say, \u201cIt\u2019s for your safety.\u201d It\u2019s like, I don\u2019t understand why someone needs to touch me for my safety or why do I have to empty everything for my safety? Yeah, so this is what we\u2019re talking about research. And again, it means during this research period, it\u2019s kind of trying to be very attentive to the everyday. So when I\u2019m going as well to visit the borders, it doesn\u2019t mean that my work starts at the border. No, it means that all the way on the train, I\u2019m trying to be attentive. Sometimes I\u2019m just filming nature or just looking at people. But also, it means that it\u2019s kind of going all the way with the everyday of what happens and talking to people. And then from all of that, how do we create a script for a performance?<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>And so what did that performance look like, to give our listeners an idea?<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>So, it looked different each time, very different, because it depended on the audience. When you arrive to the performance, you receive headphones and you receive instructions through the headphones. Yeah\u2026the whole performance was written in a way that there are eight channels. So by the end of it, or if you are sitting outside or standing outside, you would look at a choreography if you want. It\u2019s very simplistic one, so each channel is different than the other, but everyone goes through all the channels. And obviously everyone figures out after the second time, you start to realize that these people are doing what I was doing.<\/p>\n At one moment, the performance, with the transition of each channel, there is a common choreography that everyone has to do it. And this is the only time where you hear not a refugee story, but you hear the conditions of what does it mean to be a refugee. And one time you hear about the kind of food or the structure of where they\u2019re staying. So I kind of tried to avoid as much as I could as well to be trying to represent refugees in this performance or border stories, because I feel like there was a lot of that.<\/p>\n And in many ways, in most of my work, not only in this work, I kind of don\u2019t feel at ease to represent many things, but to reproduce and find frictions. So it\u2019s not surprising for me most of the time that people are not very satisfied. They say, \u201cWhat was that?\u201d And for me, this is like, okay, I can work with that much better than just to do this representation in general.<\/p>\n People are like, \u201cPalestinians are humans too, and if you watch these stories on Instagram, your view will be changed,\u201d and it\u2019s still going into month eight of a genocide. So clearly that narrative is not working.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Marina: <\/strong>And in one of the articles about this piece, someone wrote that you hand a slip of paper to people after that says, \u201cThis performance piece will not change your life,\u201d and I was wondering if you could talk more about that.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Especially with the war now, but let\u2019s focus on the refugee crisis. What happened, especially with the media, I met with journalists during the research, and I tried to understand from them how they cover the stories and why certain borders, why certain stories, why all of that. Most of it\u2019s to try and make other people feel how horrible it is and how should be very humanistic with each other. And obviously I don\u2019t believe in this kind of solidarity, like this humanitarian solidarity, because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s real in many ways. So I needed to be very clear that it\u2019s like, don\u2019t resume your guilt. If you come to attend the story about refugees, about borders, then you will understand what\u2019s happening. You will never understand what\u2019s happening because obviously you haven\u2019t been into that experience. It\u2019s just trying to make it closer to everyone to understand that the system that we all live in works with different people and different privileges in different proximities maybe. In this way, I didn\u2019t want for audience to say, \u201cOh, I\u2019ve been into this refugee performance.\u201d It\u2019s like, this is wrong. As a sentence, it\u2019s wrong for me. So yeah, I don\u2019t know if that answers your question.<\/p>\n It\u2019s not only the audience at play, but myself as an Arab woman, so myself representing myself as the performance artist, so the object of the piece.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Marina: <\/strong>It does, and it touches on something Nabra and I talk about all the time, which is we can\u2019t stand the humanizing narrative. And right now what\u2019s happening with the current genocide, I think proves that that\u2019s true is people are like, \u201cPalestinians are humans too, and if you watch these stories on Instagram, your view will be changed,\u201d and it\u2019s still going into month eight of a genocide. So clearly that narrative is not working.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Exactly, exactly.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>It\u2019s also ridiculous to have the point be \u201cblank are humans too.\u201d We talk about that a lot with especially earlier waves of art, trying to just get to the basic, which isn\u2019t even the basic, it\u2019s before the basic. And so how can we have a more nuanced conversation if we\u2019re not even at that level with each other? Yeah, that\u2019s something we\u2019ve talked a lot about and a lot of artists have brought up, especially MENA and SWANA artists.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, totally.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Another piece we wanted to talk about is Dress Me How You Like<\/em><\/a>,<\/em> which is how I first learned about you and got very excited about this piece. I think it\u2019s brilliant as a feminist and culturally informed performance art piece. So can you talk about that and where that idea came from and also maybe where it\u2019s been performed, because from what I understand, it\u2019s a piece that\u2019s gone around, and you are the center of that piece, so I know it\u2019s very mobile. So, a little bit about its history as well.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>It\u2019s not very mobile to be very honest. I think it was performed only twice in two different venues or three different venues, one of them is my home, and that was I think my second piece that I\u2019ve ever done.<\/p>\n Where did the idea came from? I don\u2019t honestly remember very well, but I think it was very much related to moving from New York to Berlin, and being in a drumming class, and having to hear what an Arab woman should be. I\u2019m fascinated still with always\u2014also this may be responds to your very first question, \u201cWhat are you working on next?\u201d\u2014with Egyptian pop cinema and the personas that are created from there, I find it\u2019s like a gold mine I keep going back to. The piece, if you want, it happened quite quickly, and it developed. So first it was in 2012 that I submitted this, and I was much younger obviously, so I was eager to just do and submit and try things and all of that. And so this is how it started.<\/p>\n I started, learned how to sew through YouTube and was watching a lot of videos and talking a lot about this idea like Western Hollywood movies, how they\u2019re portraying Arab women, so how a Western body if you want wearing Arabness, and what does that mean. It\u2019s very obvious concluded you need to be a harem or a belly dancer that is oppressed by men and society or a terrorist. And as a terrorist, you don\u2019t belly dance, but mostly you do belly dance as an Arab woman.<\/p>\n And I had a lot of fun with that. So I invite people to attend, and the group of people should be maximum eight, and each group will choose some garments, dress me, then make me pose, and then they take a photo for me, and then they would pose, they can dress up as well and come and stand and take a photo so we\u2019re all inside the photo. And then what happens is that because the garments, they\u2019re all inspired by Hollywood movies, so obviously they\u2019re all orientalist. And my whole idea is it\u2019s kind of like how the Hollywood movies corners us and how the perception of… Because before actually, I\u2019ve never realized that the perception of Arabness is that kind of informed only by Hollywood movies or stereotypes that much, naive of me. But yeah.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>You\u2019re saying that afterward, after they dress you, I think you were going to talk about what happens after that.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Right. It\u2019s kind of cornering them, so it\u2019s kind of talking back at any audience member who dares to come to such a performance, no? Even that you don\u2019t say or you don\u2019t think of that, but it\u2019s kind of, okay, let\u2019s play. But in that play, there\u2019s obviously, there\u2019s very clear position that we\u2019re taking. You\u2019re going to be dressing me, again, in orientalist garments that look very tacky. And I love it because I did them, but yeah. But yeah.<\/p>\n And then I developed a lecture performance out of it as well, which is a lot of fun as well, because… So I was kind of commenting on what had happened in the performance by creating another layer of talking back, if you want, to the audience, but as well by simply analyzing the references that got me to this piece. And as well, trying to understand these different positions of, it\u2019s not only the audience at play, but myself as an Arab woman, so myself representing myself as the performance artist, so the object of the piece. So what happens within the object when someone is touching you weirdly inside the performance? When an Arab audience comes in as an…? Okay, so all of these kind of encounters as well, what do they do, what do they produce, in terms of an understanding, in terms of an encounter, just simply by talking or describing these encounters?<\/p>\n And then I was invited again to perform it I think 2019 in Prague. So we\u2019re talking eight years apart, and obviously I had grown in eight years, and I moved quite a lot of houses as well, so most of my things were gone to the streets. So I worked with a theatre, National Theatre of Prague, and I went to their own theatre archive to fetch more costumes. Then it was a lot of more fun as well, the piece, because then we had different setups. I worked with Maria Kassab, she\u2019s a\u2014we collaborated quite often\u2014photographer and visual artist.<\/p>\n Yeah. So we created different kind of studio setups, and I had more budget, so I created more costumes as well. And that space was very big, so we could really play quite a lot. And I changed the interaction a bit. So I had theatre staff to sit with me in my tent, so when they arrive, people arrive, there\u2019s already people just dressed up and sitting, watching. And the costumes were more informed or more detailed in many ways, and the photos as well, they produced a better reproduction, kind of collage of different aesthetics, material, meanings. Yeah. It was a bit more informed,<\/p>\n I think as well it\u2019s much more related as well to my confidence in relation to the audience. So after one have practiced a bit. Because as well, there is always the question, how do you rehearse such a performance? There\u2019s no way of rehearsing. You can imagine as much as you can, you can create your exit and entry strategies, you can do all of that. But there is something as well about myself as a performer and how confident I became, played a big role in my comfort in receiving the audience and all of that.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, what you were just talking about, I love, so from 2012 to \u201819, you\u2019re talking about this shift in confidence. But I\u2019m just curious, how has your work evolved over the years? I think the confidence, I\u2019m sure, is one thing, but from how you started, which maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you started doing this work, to where you are now, what do you think are the big evolutions in the work that you make?<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Well, evolutions, how to talk about that? I think because it\u2019s just like to learn how to work with other people, this is the biggest evolution that could happen, and still I\u2019m always learning. I\u2019ve been very lucky to collaborate with brilliant people and artists.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Can you talk a little bit more about just how you started doing performance artwork? Did it evolve from a theatre practice? I think that\u2019s how often people get started. But yeah, I\u2019m just curious. We read your artistic bio earlier, which was beautiful, but it didn\u2019t have some of those origin points, so would love to hear about that now.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>So I studied theatre at the Lebanese University in Lebanon, which I\u2019m very proud, of course, because it\u2019s a public university and I think it\u2019s one of the best universities for theatre when I was still studying there, for theatre in Lebanon. But when I was studying, I was working at ten different jobs, which I continued to do after I graduated. So I was translating, I was a dancer, I was a stylist, and an art director, so set decorator that means in the language we\u2019re using now, I was working at coffee shop, I was assisting a photographer, I was producing, I was visual editing for a Lebanese TV channel, so many, many things.<\/p>\n And so that meant it\u2019s not only theatre in a way that informed what I do now, but these many other elements as well. So to be on a music video pop song or to produce an advertisement and the amount of work that it is happening for thirty seconds, someone just drinking soda or whatever, It didn\u2019t matter really what the project is, it\u2019s just like, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s work. Let\u2019s do things. Let\u2019s make money because we need to live,\u201d et cetera. And studying theatre in Lebanon as well, it meant that for most of everyone it\u2019s like, what are you really doing, really, really? Because you really need to be stubborn and you need to do many other things in order to be an artist in Lebanon unless you got it, somehow you have the gate open to you.<\/p>\n So yeah, this is my background. And then at one point I was kind of done, not from Lebanon, but I went into a place growing up in Lebanon and spending maybe eight years in Beirut. It\u2019s like, okay, Beirut is a very tiny place and I feel like I need to develop. And so I went to New York at the time, and I applied and did a Master\u2019s degree at NYU Tisch Performance Studies. And I was in a conflict with myself because I come from this practical background, and it\u2019s a theoretical program, and I didn\u2019t understand what does that mean. And then I understood.<\/p>\n And also it meant that it\u2019s not the only thing that I didn\u2019t understand in the beginning as well. I want to mention this because I\u2019ve been thinking a lot about it lately. It was the first time that I see a Lonely Planet guide for Israel, so that meant Israel is real, because up until that point, I was still like… It\u2019s like I meet with Israelis and everything, and it\u2019s like \u201cno.\u201d And that kind of two big realization in many ways that were happening at that period of time, and it made a lot of conflict in me because I know how to do things, I don\u2019t know how to write a paper. So I had to learn, and I resisted a lot, but I had to learn the tough way and I learned a lot, such an interesting program and in many ways and it teaches you criticality. But it took me years to figure that out actually. When I was there, I didn\u2019t figure it out.<\/p>\n And while I was there and because of the need that… I need to produce, I can\u2019t be just sitting reading and writing papers. It happened that I met, or I was living in a loft for a Lebanese dancer choreographer, and I think now he\u2019s a gardener, Makram Hamdan. So I had this big loft in Bushwick, and this is Bushwick before now it\u2019s very yuppie, or so I discovered. I don\u2019t know, so someone told me. And he had the idea of we have a big space and everything, let\u2019s try to make a residency. So we make monthly, or no, it was Bushwick Open Studios actually, and he asked me, do you want to participate? And we can do something, we open the loft and make studios.<\/p>\n And this is how I decided that it\u2019s like, okay, let\u2019s do smaller pieces, there\u2019s no theatre. This I was used to already from Lebanon because at the Lebanese university, conditions are very, very basic. People are creating the conditions all the time for themselves to be able to do the theatre. So it was kind of, okay, let\u2019s try things out. The first piece I did ever, it was called Passage<\/em>. So where people come in blindfolded and there\u2019s the different textures, there\u2019s live music in this very small room, and I\u2019m guiding them through the different textures inside the room.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>I really appreciated how much video there is of your work available. And I don\u2019t see that a lot, especially from theatre artists or people who do any type of live performance really. It can be difficult to do that, but a lot of the video itself is a piece of art. They\u2019re not just the documentation from the back of the house where you see the blurry people on stage or something like that. But really the video documentation is a piece of art unto itself. So I wanted to ask you about that and how video plays a role in your work and whether you always have a video component, a live component, and photos when presenting a piece, or how you think about that multidisciplinary way of presenting your ideas.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>So most of the time, video… As well, before we say that, I want to say thank you to my now I think friend and collaborator, Ana Nieves, aka La Manchega<\/a>, because we\u2019ve been working quite a lot and she\u2019s my video person and friend I\u2019m always working with. Even though we don\u2019t live in the same city anymore, but we understand each other in many ways. And so even if I\u2019m making the video, but it\u2019s kind of like video and photos are a product, right? I\u2019m always thinking about them as a product. And a lot of my way of looking at things, when I talk about reproduction or production, I mean it\u2019s like, okay, so these kind of aesthetic, even though they\u2019re not intended, once they are in video or photo, they are product by themselves, and what do they create then?<\/p>\n This is why most of my work is informed by videos, photos, and I kind of, in many ways, I let them create the aesthetics. So I\u2019m more oriented towards a feeling or like, okay, it\u2019s like how do we make a photo that generates a product that can talk about what I\u2019m trying to do, even though a lot of times it doesn\u2019t happen. You end up with a video, video that doesn\u2019t have a good sound, so how do we then work with this video to do what it needs to do without the sound? What are the alternatives? But video and photo in general, videos, they\u2019re a great source of inspiration as well for my personal self. So this is why I find it a fascinating medium, even though I\u2019m never a professional doing that. But I do as well my own video works that are very amateurish if you want.<\/p>\n I\u2019m not thinking that this should be a feminist performance or this should be a political performance or any of that. Just because I am feminist and political and so on, then obviously the work is.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Marina: <\/strong>Well, I hear everything you\u2019re saying, and I agree that you can\u2019t capture everything in the video for sure, but I did feel very inspired watching the videos of your pieces. I also did want to participate in different ways. And so that\u2019s where I felt like, \u201cOh, okay, well, the video will never give me the chance to do that, but it did give me a taste.\u201d So I was really grateful for this archive that you\u2019ve created of the work, especially because as Nabra and I have talked about, and we were talking earlier with you about, it is important to really have an archive of our MENA and SWANA art that\u2019s being made. Because when I think of performance art, I always think of Marina Abramovic first, which is fine, great performance artist, but why are our references this one person as opposed to really having a more capacious understanding of the different performance artists and the different concerns that are coming up with performance artists?<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I\u2019m happy that… because sometimes I realize, maybe we didn\u2019t do enough or maybe it wasn\u2019t good. So it\u2019s good to hear that this is how it is perceived. Yeah, cool.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Is there a certain, excuse me, message or theme or idea that connects to your pieces? Nabra and I were talking about them, and we were like, oh, these feel very feminist, but the word \u201cfeminist\u201d can be loaded in different ways, and so I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s how you identify them. But we would love to hear you discuss, is there something that sort of connects them all together?<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Okay, so this question stays with me because a lot of times when you do something you don\u2019t understand, or when I do something, I don\u2019t understand what I\u2019m doing, or I think that I understand, and then years later it\u2019s like, oh, yeah, then it makes sense, but that can change as well. It\u2019s never really something that is fluid and brilliant, and yeah, I like everything. It doesn\u2019t happen that way. A lot of times, I wished that I interacted differently or I did something different. But luckily I am a performance artist, so I can always go back and do whatever I want with it, right?<\/p>\n And so what links everything together I think is the… Or what I think that I arrived, this is my last conclusion, it\u2019s like how emotions have their physicality and how they interact, but it\u2019s not only emotions, it\u2019s as well stereotypes and emotions and violence. Because now I\u2019m just trying to track the different pieces, and with each piece\u2026 okay, I talk about violence in some of them. I talk about borders. I talk about gender, I talk about my last piece, revolution and birth, and I\u2019m very interested in what does that do to the body? And how do we articulate that? How does it choreograph the body? How do we sometimes really embody this, let\u2019s say? How do we embody the violence, and how does that make us not feel, but express ourselves? And how can we then switch these moments by only expressing them? How do we create a rupture in this general narrative by just putting it out loud?<\/p>\n I\u2019m not thinking about what links them as feminist, because it\u2019s inherently, I\u2019m a feminist, and feminism is obviously very wide and in schools and spectrums, so it\u2019s kind of like saying, talking about psychology. And I don\u2019t agree with all of the schools, and I don\u2019t have to, but it\u2019s just in that way, I\u2019m not thinking that this should be a feminist performance or this should be a political performance or any of that. Just because I am feminist and political and so on, then obviously the work is.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>So we were chuckling because Rima has two children. We just heard one of them, although the background for me we\u2019re hearing construction, so I think I would much rather hear the sounds of children, it\u2019s much more joyful.<\/p>\n But Rima, loved so many of the things you just said, including yeah, the work is feminist because I\u2019m feminist. And so it\u2019s your feminist school of thought, not just whatever feminist school of thought.<\/p>\n But also you talked about rupturing a narrative or narratives, and that I feel has been a theme for the things you\u2019ve described. Like, oh, you think you understand borders? Actually, let\u2019s interrogate what you understand about borders, what we understand about them. Oh, you think that you understand Hollywood? Let\u2019s see what happens when you are the Hollywood producer who\u2019s getting to design the costumes and getting to be the photographer here, or the person who\u2019s posing you I guess. And even you were just talking about motherhood, and what is birth, what does this do, and reinterrogating this narrative that I think there\u2019s a common narrative of yes, and mothers give birth and then they have children, and yeah, what does that mean? So I really appreciate the way that you\u2019ve talked about rupturing these narratives, because I do think that when I think of your art as thought provoking, I\u2019m like, that\u2019s what those thoughts are provoking is actually what do I know about these things and how have I come to any of these conclusions at all?<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>That\u2019s great to hear. And then as well, I want to add a little because it\u2019s like this total conception, because when we\u2019re speaking about revolution and birth, it\u2019s like, oh, birthing a revolution, oh, revolution and the birth of… It\u2019s like, no, no, no, no, no, it\u2019s something very personal actually. It\u2019s something that you have to do with your body. It\u2019s not something that you have to perceive, or as well with borders and refugees. So yeah, totally, it\u2019s kind of like, again, we have to do these things with our bodies. It\u2019s not something that you are only perceiving. When you talk about, for example, revolution, everyone has a certain image, no? Or you talk about the war, it\u2019s always this kind of stereotype of an image, or Hollywood, or Arab women, or suicide bombers. Yeah. There\u2019s always this kind of complete total perception. And yeah, I\u2019m interested kind of at tweaking or rupturing or taking the piss really sometimes.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>I love that.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>My bio, yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>I love that we\u2019re ending with taking the piss because it\u2019s perfect. Thank you so much for joining us and for talking about all of your work. I really encourage everyone who\u2019s listening to check out Rima\u2019s website<\/a> and actually look at the images and videos that have come out of that work, because you really can\u2019t capture everything just from describing it or even from seeing what\u2019s archived, so hopefully one day we\u2019ll be able to experience your work live. Thank you so much for being here.<\/p>\n Rima: <\/strong>Thank you for having me, and I\u2019m very emotional when you say these words.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Thank you so much, Rima.<\/p>\n This podcast is produced as a contribution to HowlRound Theatre Commons. You can find more episodes of Kunafa and Shay <\/em>and other HowlRound podcasts by searching \u201cHowlRound\u201d wherever you find podcasts. If you loved this podcast, please post a rating and write a review on your platform of choice. This helps other people find us. You can also find a transcript for this episode along with a lot of other progressive and disruptive content on the howlround.com website. Have an idea for an exciting podcast, essay, or TV event the theatre community needs to hear? Visit howlround.com and contribute your ideas to the commons. Yalla<\/em>, bye!<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Yalla<\/em>, bye!<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n
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