\n<\/p>\n
Nabra Nelson: <\/strong>Salam Alaikum. <\/em>Welcome to Kunafa and Shay<\/em>, a podcast produced for HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatre makers worldwide. Kunafa and Shay discusses and analyzes contemporary and historical Middle Eastern and North African, or MENA, and SWANA or Southwest Asian, North African theatre from across the region.<\/p>\n Marina Johnson: <\/strong>I\u2019m Marina.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>And I\u2019m Nabra.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>And we\u2019re your hosts.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Our name, Kunafa and Shay<\/em>, invites you into the discussion in the best way we know how, with complex and delicious sweets like kunafa<\/em> and perfectly warm tea or in Arabic, shay<\/em>.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Kunafa and Shay<\/em> is a place to share experiences, ideas, and sometimes to engage with our differences. In each country and Arab world, you\u2019ll find kunafa made differently in that way. We also lean into the diversity, complexity and robust flavors of MENA and SWANA theatre. We bring our own perspectives, research, and special guests in order to start a dialogue and encourage further learning and discussion.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>In our fourth season, we focus on classical and historical theatre, including discussions of traditional theatre forms and in-depth analysis of some of the oldest and most significant classical plays from 1,300 BC to the twentieth century.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yalla<\/em>, grab your tea, the shay is just right.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Today we\u2019re talking about Tawfiq al-Hakim and his classic play People of the Cave<\/em>. We\u2019ll be analyzing the play through our perspectives, including discussing its place in the MENA canon, the idea of adapting the Qur\u2019an into theatre, and what the play can help us understand about theatre history from the Middle East. So let\u2019s jump in first with a little bit about the writer himself.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>But before we do that, I just have to say that Nabra and I recorded an episode very much like this one in our first season when we were trying to figure out what happened.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>It was the same episode.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Okay. No, it\u2019s not true. When we were trying to figure out\u2014<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>It was our first episode that we recorded, by the way.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yeah, it was so fun. So we had this notes document, and we both went, and did all this research and it was really great, but we then decided, \u201cOh, this doesn\u2019t fit in our first season. We really need to make everything thematic and work.\u201d And so we always saved it, but I\u2019ve always wanted to revisit it. So then here in our fourth season for theatre history, we\u2019re like, \u201cYes, now\u2019s the time,\u201d except that we couldn\u2019t remember everything that our old notes meant. So it\u2019s been a process. Every time we\u2019ve logged on to do this together, something bad has happened. The app that we record on crashed, or there was drilling outside of my apartment. At one point we were like, \u201cWe cannot record today.\u201d But I wanted to add things to it. We couldn\u2019t just use the episode that we had already recorded because\u2014<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Although for the record, I was very, very pro just using the episode, we already recorded\u2014<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yes, but it was a different us. It was a many years ago. We\u2019ve grown.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>It\u2019s okay. I embrace her. I embrace many years ago us.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yeah. But current Marina could not let past Marina speak on this. And we had access to slightly different resources than we did a few years ago, just resources for research purposes. And so I wanted to include that. So anytime we mention this episode number size, and I just wanted to share that because I really want it to be the best possible People of the Cave<\/em> episode that it could be. It\u2019s now hopefully reaching its full potential.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Wow, that\u2019s inspiring. But I think our past selves are even more amazing than our current selves. This is a very cool episode, so I hope y\u2019all enjoy it. I\u2019m excited about this play. And what we\u2014<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Just wanted to share some of our bickering with them, you know?<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Yes, it happens all the time. This is a big one. We\u2019re still fraught, but we\u2019re going to go ahead and give you the new and improved version.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Okay. So tell us about Tawfiq al-Hakim.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>All right. He was born in Alexandria in Egypt in 1898. He was fascinated with theatre for all of his life. His father was a judge, which was a highly esteemed position in Egypt, especially at the time. And he went to Paris to study law and returned home with a strong desire, somehow, to write plays after that experience and established Egypt as a place for serious theatre and art. When he returned, he worked as a Deputy Prosecutor in Alexandria, combining his legal work with writing theatre. He worked in civil courts and wrote with both the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Education. However, in 1936, he devoted himself to writing full time. Although he wrote novels, poems, and essays, he\u2019s best remembered as a prolific playwright who played a key role in the development of Arabic drama.<\/p>\n Theatre in Egypt at the time was essentially entertainment with very few links to literature. Because theatre was conducted in colloquial language, many intellectuals looked down on it. The classical language was of course used in the writing of literature. And Tawfiq al-Hakim set out to change that. He wanted drama and the novel and the short story to become part of the literary canon in Egypt. And sidebar\u2014fun fact\u2014in the book The Essential Tawfiq al-Hakim<\/em>, to illustrate the point about the novel not being considered literature, author Johnson Davies mentions that Arabian Nights<\/em> became a masterpiece of storytelling in the West but was hardly mentioned in literary criticisms in the Middle East at the time. For this reason, it wasn\u2019t looked at as high art.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Two of the goals that al-Hakim stated for himself and his writing career were one, \u201cto insert the element of tragedy into an Arab Islamic topic and not merely take on a story from the Noble book and set it in dramatic form, but rather to look at are Islamic mythology with the eyes of Greek tragedy.\u201d And then two, \u201cto bring about a fusion of the two mentalities and literature.\u201d I love this because it\u2019s clear that Tawfiq al-Hakim has goals for theatre that he\u2019s creating an Egypt. So we\u2019ll talk more about those goals in a bit, but in total, he wrote more than fifty full-length plays. His work was influenced by sources both from the Arab world and abroad. And his time in France left him influenced by playwrights such as Ionesco and Beckett. He even wrote an absurdist play called The Tree Climber.<\/em> His work used Egyptian vernacular, and it made it acceptable for modern Arabic writers to do the same. He also wrote many short stories, and he was considered a rival of the popular Yusuf Idris at the time. When al-Hakim died in Cairo in 1987 at ninety years old, that\u2019s when this rivalry was really, I guess, at its height.<\/p>\n So that\u2019s just a little bit about Tawfiq al-Hakim himself. But the first play that he wrote is People of the Cave<\/em> or Ahl al-Kahf<\/em>. And it was written in 1933. And that\u2019s the play that we\u2019re going to talk about today because it\u2019s a play that I am just so obsessed with, and in love with, and I hope to get to direct sometime soon. But it\u2019s considered one of his most significant but also most controversial works, and it\u2019s often referred to as the first genuine Egyptian tragedy.<\/p>\n He seems to critique the religious story, showing the people of the cave distressed at their lot after returning to their village with their family and friends all dead, and they\u2019re faced with a brand-new world that they don\u2019t belong in<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Nabra: <\/strong>So I\u2019ll give you a brief synopsis of the play. It\u2019s got a lot in there, and we\u2019ll be talking more about all of it, but here\u2019s as brief as we could get with a plot synopsis.<\/p>\n So the setting is the Eastern Roman Empire around 375 AD in a cave in a place called Al-Raqim next to Tarsus, which is in modern-day Turkey. The play is inspired by the verse from the Qur\u2019an called Sura al-Kahf, or the verse of \u201cThe Cave,\u201d and we\u2019ll talk more about the verse itself later on, but for now, I\u2019ll just summarize the plot of the play itself.<\/p>\n Three Christian men, Michelenia, Marnush, and Iamlikha, along with their dog Qitmir, wake up in a cave after fleeing persecution from the Pagan ruler and villagers where they\u2019re from. They\u2019re groggy and sore but think that they have just slept there for one day. While they debate whether or when to go back to the village, others find them in the cave, they bring them back to the village where they are treated like saints and brought to the palace as honored guests to the now Christian king. They find out that they\u2019ve been asleep for three hundred years, but they don\u2019t fully believe it.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Iamlikha and Marnush go out into the city to find new clothes and reconnect with their families who they can\u2019t believe are long dead. Meanwhile, Michelenia stays in the palace and meets Prisca, who is the descendant of his fianc\u00e9e. He falls in love with her even after he\u2019s told that she\u2019s not the same person. She was told by a soothsayer that she\u2019s destined to look exactly like her ancestor, and that is why they have the same name and visage. But she rejects Michelenia\u2019s advances and he\u2019s heartbroken.<\/p>\n At the beginning of the final act. We\u2019re back in the cave when all three men and their dog wake up once again, they wonder whether their adventures in the city were all a dream, though they all had the same dream and they\u2019re all wearing the same clothes from the city. Iamlikha then dies. Marnush then denies his belief in resurrection, which causes Michelenia to question his faith and call him a pagan. Marnush then also dies, claiming he has lost his faith.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Prisca and Galias, the king\u2019s servant, show up at the cave to find them, revealing that they had been imprisoned there by the king with no food for the past month. This is not really explained in the play, to be honest. Finally, Michelenia begins to die in Prisca\u2019s arms. The people of the city are scheduled to close up the mouth of the cave that afternoon, and she decides to stay in the cave with Michelenia and die there with him because she now realizes that she loves him just like her ancestor did. The last line into the play is, \u201cYou were a woman who loved. Yes, that is enough.\u201d<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Nabra really gets into the melodrama there. So that\u2019s the play, and at least that\u2019s one version of the play and the first version you\u2019ll hear today. But until I started reading the play, I hadn\u2019t realized it\u2019s based on a sura from the Qur\u2019an or that the Sleepers of the Cave, as they\u2019re sometimes called, are recognized in Christianity. So this is a pretty special sura to you, right?<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean this sura is really well known among Muslims. It\u2019s got a lot of important stories in it, including the story of the people of the cave. But there are other stories in the sura. The People of the Cave itself is actually a pretty short piece. It\u2019s very briefly recounted, but my mom, and a lot of Muslims listen to it every Friday because it\u2019s a blessing to listen to it on Fridays because it\u2019ll bless the rest of your day and your whole week. And we studied it a lot, my brother and I and our Friday Qur\u2019an lessons with my mom, we would study it and go through all of the pieces of it and the significance. And so I knew this verse really well and all of its stories by the time that I read the play.<\/p>\n And so the synopsis of the story as told in the Qur\u2019an, which, again, is shorter than the play, it\u2019s a pretty short story. I\u2019d say it\u2019s like maybe a page or so long. It tells the story of a number of people who were fleeing religious persecution for being monotheistic and they go to a cave, and God makes them sleep for a number of years. And then they found out that they\u2019ve been asleep for many, many, many, many years when one of them goes into town to get food and finds that his coin is hundreds of years out of date. And that\u2019s basically, the story.<\/p>\n But there are some big lessons, like a couple big lessons, in this story the way that I was taught it and understand it. The first important lesson is that only God knows all and that humans shouldn\u2019t try to guess at the things that only God knows. So they mentioned that the people guess at the people being asleep for 309 years, and in the Qur\u2019an it says, \u201cGod knows best how long they stayed. To Him belongs the unseen of the Heavens and the Earth.\u201d And then there\u2019s also a famous passage that\u2019s about the number of people in the cave. In the Qur\u2019an. It says, \u201cThey will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog. And they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog, guessing at the unseen. And they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, my Lord is the most knowing of their number.\u201d So that\u2019s one of the big lessons is that God knows things that humans just don\u2019t know and humans shouldn\u2019t try to guess at these things that only God knows.<\/p>\n And the second big lesson of this verse is that God is merciful to his believers. So the People of the Cave really increased in faith through this experience. They say in the Qur\u2019an, \u201cThey were youths who truly believed in their Lord, and we increased them in guidance.\u201d It really felt like everyone in the story, even though it was really shortly recounted, it was clear that they accepted and understood their circumstances really quickly. Because of their faith in God, they immediately believe and understand that he could have put them to sleep for three hundred years, and that it\u2019s good for them because they\u2019re now in the age of believers, versus in the play they\u2019re all very incredulous. They don\u2019t really believe that they\u2019ve suffered that long, or that any of this could possibly happen. And they\u2019re even decreased in faith in the case of the play versus increased in faith, like it says in the verse. So a lot of people know the story of the cave. They know these lessons. It\u2019s an important verse for us, and it also makes it a really good, I guess, candidate for adaptation.<\/p>\n In addition, it doesn\u2019t really feature any prophets, but rather just regular people. So there wasn\u2019t really any worry about portraying a prophet, which is against Islam, but it does still tread muddy waters in my opinion, on that point. But we\u2019ll talk about that later.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Okay, so in the Christian retelling of the story, we\u2019re talking about the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus. And what I\u2019ve heard in the context of Eastern Orthodoxy is that the seven youths were named Maximilian, Iamblicus, Martinian, John, Dionysius, Constantine, and Antoninus. So they all lived in the third century. Maximilian was the son of a city administrator. The other six were sons of well-known people in Ephesus. And it seems like that\u2019s important context because they\u2019re all relatively well-connected, which you probably think will help you on a rainy day or a day of persecution when you need those connections. So they all grew up together and they were also in the military together.<\/p>\n And then the Emperor Decius arrived in Ephesus in 249. He commanded all the citizens to offer sacrifice to the pagan gods. And anyone who didn\u2019t would be tortured or killed. The seven youths were given up by informants essentially and had to appear before the Emperor, where they confessed their faith in Christ. They were all stripped of their military accomplishments and the Emperor told them that they were allowed to flee, but he hoped that they would change their minds while he was off on this military campaign. So the youths fled from the city, and they hid in a cave nearby where they prayed. Iamblicus was the one who would occasionally go to the city to buy bread for everyone. And he did that dressed as a beggar.<\/p>\n On one such trip, he heard the Emperor was looking for them. And then the Emperor, of course learned where they were hiding, and then he ordered the entrance of the cave to be sealed with stones so that the group would perish from hunger and thirst. However, to have the dignitaries at the entrance of the cave, those people who came to block it were secretly Christian. And so desiring to preserve the memory of the saints they placed inside the cave, they put a sealed container which contained two metal plaques. And on those plaques they had inscribed the names of the seven youths and the details of their suffering and death. Then God placed the youth into a miraculous sleep, which lasted for almost two centuries.<\/p>\n In the meantime, the persecutions against Christians ceased, and so flash forward to living in the reign of emperor or Theodosius the Younger. And during that time, there were a lot of people who denied that there would be a general resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ. Some of those people said, \u201cHow can there be a resurrection of the dead where there\u2019ll be neither the soul in their body since they\u2019ll have disintegrated, right?\u201d Bodies decompose. Others affirm that saying that it would be impossible for bodies to arise and live after one thousand years because they would\u2019ve been fully decomposed. So it\u2019s believed then in this Christian tradition that God revealed the mystery of the resurrection through these seven youths.<\/p>\n They completely awoke from their sleep, unaware that almost two hundred years had passed. Their bodies and clothing were completely undecayed. They were preparing to accept torture when they exited the cave, because they assumed that it had not been that long and that there would of course still be Christian persecution going on. So then they asked one of the men to go buy bread for them in the city. And when they exited, as the story goes, they walk out of the cave, they go a little distance, and they see a huge cross at the gates and heard people freely speaking the name of Jesus Christ. And he was sort of like, \u201cWhere am I? How can this be where I was, where I thought that I was going to die for Christ?\u201d So he paid for the bread, or he tried to, but his coins had images of the Emperor Decius on them and he was detained because this was considered an odd use of money. And then he was brought before the bishop of Ephesus.<\/p>\n So then this bishop, hearing the pretty bewildering answers of this young man, decided that God was revealing something through some sort of mystery through him. And so he went to the cave. He found it sealed. He opened it. When the cave was opened, he found the container, so think back to the guys who were there to seal the cave, and he read the names on the plaque that that man had written about these people who were supposed to die once they were in the cave. And he saw the details on the ceiling of the cave that people had written once they got inside detailing the time of Emperor Decius. He saw everyone alive rejoicing, and he perceived that God was waking them up from a long sleep and was demonstrating to the church, and everyone there who was maybe a non-believer, the mystery of resurrection. So the Emperor himself soon came and spoke with the young men, and then these young men, in plain view of everyone, laid their heads upon the grounds and fell asleep again, this time until the actual resurrection.<\/p>\n So that\u2019s the story from the Eastern Orthodox perspective. And as I was telling you this, or as I was telling you this several years ago, in our first time that we did this episode, Nabra, I realized why the Orthodox never say things like, \u201cSo-and-so died\u201d or, \u201cThis person passed away,\u201d but we always say in Orthodoxy that someone has, \u201cFallen asleep in the Lord.\u201d And now I\u2019m realizing that\u2019s because we consider them really asleep until the final resurrection happens. So I felt like I learned something about my own faith that I grew up in through this episode.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>That\u2019s so interesting. I love that. And clearly these stories from the Qur\u2019an and the Christian retelling of this story are obviously the same story. And Tawfiq al-Hakim draws from both of them and uses a lot of the details from the Christian story, because there are a lot more details, as you can tell, in the Christian story than what\u2019s in the Qur\u2019an, which is totally fine because in Islam we believe in the people of the Book, which is that there are Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and we consider them all basically the same religion. There\u2019s kind of three editions of the same book; we\u2019re all the people of the book of these monotheistic religions, and we all believe in the same God. And so, there are a lot of instances in the Qur\u2019an of a story that\u2019s in either the Torah or the Bible that\u2019s just kind of mentioned, and it\u2019s understood in a way, that you can go back into one of the other books to learn more. So for a Muslim writer like Tawfiq al-Hakim to go back and reference the Christian story from the Bible and from Christian retellings, it makes sense that he would draw from that because they\u2019re the same story. That\u2019s not really a secret or anything. All Muslims know that. We should all know that. I think it\u2019s a lovely element of Islam.<\/p>\n But what\u2019s interesting about the play is that the lessons of the play are not really the lessons of either of these religious stories. So you\u2019ve got, \u201cGod is merciful, all things are possible through God, and God knows all.\u201d And those are kind of the lessons of the religious stories. But do these come across in the play at all? No. In fact, they\u2019re clearly different lessons, or morals, or I guess just tidbits that you\u2019re left with at the end of the play. And one of the big ones in the play is this kind of, \u201cLove conquers all\u201d theme that comes across. It\u2019s really solidified by the last lines of the play that we\u2019re going to read for you now.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Okay, I\u2019m going to read for Prisca.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>And I\u2019ll read for Galias the Servant.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>\u201cOne more thing, Galias. When people become aware of my story and history, tell them what I told you.\u201d<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>\u201cI shall tell them that you are a saint.\u201d<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>\u201cNo, no, you kind fool. That is not what I told you.\u201d<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>\u201cYou were a woman who loved. Yes, that is enough.\u201d<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>\u201cGalias leaves. Prisca is left alone. The mouth of the cave is blocked on her and on the dead.\u201d<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>\u201cThe end.\u201d So clearly this is an important part of the play. It ends with this kind of dramatic flourish about love, and the play even ends with Prisca choosing to die with Michelenia. It ends with, \u201cLove flies over time like a butterfly over roses,\u201d and somebody says to Prisca, \u201cDoubt never overcame your love even for a day. So it didn\u2019t disperse as a flying smoke.\u201d So, there\u2019s this overarching theme of love conquers all, love transcends space and time, and also this idea of love between people. It\u2019s not really a huge theme of Islam. There\u2019s a lot, of course, about love between God and humans. There\u2019s a lot about human relationships like rules around it and guidances towards marriage and things like that. But it stood out to me that this kind of romance was a really important part of the play that\u2019s theoretically an adaptation of a Qur\u2019anic verse, because that\u2019s not really an important or a huge part of the Muslim religion in general. And it also kind of connects to this theme of this human struggle against time, as well.<\/p>\n theatre is just really integral to Arab society, and it\u2019s been, throughout our history, a really important part of a lot of our cultures, and countries, and societies.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yeah, we have this element that these humans are very aware that their time on Earth is dwindling. And as Nabra sort of mentioned before, it\u2019s not something you hear a lot in stories about saints or religious figures because they\u2019re usually looking towards an afterlife, or what\u2019s happening after their time on Earth and their Earthly struggles, and that there are rewards that these folks are really focused on when they\u2019re on Earth. Prisca even says, \u201cDon\u2019t tell them that I\u2019m a saint. I\u2019m a woman who loved.\u201d So really putting emphasis on the Earthly instead of the Heavenly, which is not what you would expect from a religious tale.<\/p>\n So also just as Nabra was mentioning earlier, people of the Book, which is really an exciting thing, I think, but the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus aren\u2019t in the Bible, but they are in other religious texts that you would find where you would read about different saints. And we\u2019ve been talking a lot about the religious parts because I think they\u2019re so interesting as people who both grew up in these religions and who would of course approach a text like this with these thoughts, but that doesn\u2019t necessarily mean that Tawfiq al-Hakim was trying to faithfully adapt anything. But what did it mean to have him drawing on these two religions at the time?<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>And it\u2019s really just obvious, or stands out, that the name of the play is just the People of the Cave<\/em>. It\u2019s not an adaptation of the name even. So it really points out this connection to these religious texts in a really obvious way. So again, another reason why we\u2019re comparing this original text and this adaptation or what he draws from obviously making this connection in some way. And we\u2019ll talk more about that as well.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yeah, and I\u2026 remember how I told you that every time that we went to record those episodes, something was happening? Again, construction outside of my apartment. So if you can hear that, I apologize. But okay.<\/p>\n So one of the major differences between religious texts and a play? You need dramatic action. You need stakes. You need all those things that make a tale exciting in the way that if you\u2019re reading something in the Qur\u2019an or in the Christian retelling of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, you might not need the same kind of dramatic action. Though of course there are always stakes when we\u2019re talking about Heaven versus other options, right? But I think that\u2019s such a big part of this human struggle, and human conflicts, and that\u2019s why they\u2019re coming in here because you really need to dramatize things to put them on stage.<\/p>\n And one of Michelenia\u2019s lines is, \u201cOh my God, can I think that time has gained victory over us in this ghastly duel?\u201d To which Marnush says, \u201cWe are dreams of time. Time is carrying us to destroy us after all, except he who deserves remembrance for it will keep him in its memory.\u201d<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>So there\u2019s obviously this idea that it\u2019s not God who\u2019s in charge of these people\u2019s lives, but rather this focus on their mortality, on the present, and this idea of time as the thing that\u2019s going to get you there. But again, the religious lesson is really the opposite of that. It\u2019s that time does not need to get everyone, and that God has power over time and can cause people to live for as long as He wants, even three-hundred-some years. So there\u2019s a lot more of an existential lesson in this play. And there\u2019s also, it does connect to this \u201clove conquers all\u201d idea because there\u2019s this thread of love even conquers time. That quote that Marina said, \u201cTime is carrying us to destroy us after all, except he who deserves remembrance for it will keep him in its memory.\u201d This idea that maybe you live on through the memory of other people versus through the afterlife, like would be more implied in a religious conversation about this play, that you live on through memory instead.<\/p>\n And then there\u2019s also this whole love conquers all segment of it that you live on through love and that love transcends time and place. And that Prisca loves Michelenia because her ancestor three hundred years ago loved him so much that love kind of shot through time, and it conquered time, and it therefore, almost conquers mortality. So there\u2019s obviously kind of almost, again this opposite lesson when it comes to this particular theme in the play, versus in the religious story.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>And that\u2019s something to note too. In Orthodoxy, when someone dies, we say, \u201cMemory eternal.\u201d Like, \u201cMay their memory be eternal.\u201d And that\u2019s another way of praying that the soul has entered Heaven and enjoys eternal life because the memory we\u2019re talking about is God\u2019s memory. And here it really feels like we\u2019re talking about human memory. And so just looking at how the emphasis is placed on the human here and now.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>And in that vein, there are just a lot of secular aspects to the play. And so I was thinking really about why does Al-Hakim want to tell this story? Why did he write this play in the way that he wrote it with these particular lessons that we\u2019re talking about? And I think it\u2019s because he\u2019s actually questioning or criticizing the morals presented in the religious verses and stories. He seems to critique the religious story, showing the people of the cave distressed at their lot after returning to their village with their family and friends all dead, and they\u2019re faced with a brand-new world that they don\u2019t belong in. There\u2019s a lot of dark comedy infused into their exchanges in the city with the modern people, but the overall distress of their situation even leads Marnush to lose his faith at the end. And al-Hakim leans into an almost secular humanist point of view with his \u201clove conquers all\u201d lesson at the end\u2014that we really rely on other people. We need to rely on love between other people or our memory being continued by the people around us, versus relying on and leaning on God.<\/p>\n So why did he do this? I wondered that, and we found this quote from \u201cThe Theology of Tawfiq al-Hakim\u201d by William Hutchins. He says,<\/p>\n According to Tawfiq al-Hakim, Islamic religion needs Islamic philosophy to flourish. Pure science is an alternative form of religion. Free thought is not merely the right of each human being, it is his duty. The true miracles of Islam then, are God\u2019s laws of nature, and second, the human intellect which can make progress in understanding God\u2019s laws.<\/p>\n So if that\u2019s true that al-Hakim believed in that, it really makes sense that he would potentially believe that writing this play, and going deeper into an analysis of Sura Ahl al-Kahf, the People of the Cave<\/em> is kind of an expression of his interpretation of Islam and of his religion. That that element of free thought and digging deeper and bringing up new ideas and discussions from the religious text is part of how he interprets being a good Muslim. However, that\u2019s not necessarily how every Muslim feels about that. And we\u2019ll talk a little bit more about the kind of Qur\u2019anic adaptations into art that have happened outside of this particular play, but it\u2019s not necessarily accepted that you can critique the religion in that way, that\u2019s really taking a verse and diving into it so deeply in this way or even presenting a different lesson.<\/p>\n But it\u2019s also part of, at the same time, the legacy of Muslim scholarship that there\u2019s a very long history of Muslims creating new scholarship and creating new ideas about science and religion and philosophy. So there\u2019s different ways of approaching how one might feel about that, but definitely no specific kind of decree by Islam whether it\u2019s okay to do this or not. It\u2019s super interesting to see al-Hakim\u2019s idea perhaps, or approach. And so, this play may be a reflection essentially of Tawfiq al-Hakim\u2019s interpretation of the religion as a practicing Muslim, or it might be a criticism of the religion he grew up in.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>And she says this as a Muslim playwright who also writes plays that do interesting things that make people really ask questions like this. So it\u2019s exciting. So by all accounts, though, of course Tawfiq Al-Hakim was Muslim, but there\u2019s a lot to unpack with this story. And also what does it mean to be<\/em> a religion, right? One place that we found some of these things to unpack was in the William M. Hutchins article that Nabra had mentioned, \u201cThe Theology of Tawfiq al-Hakim.\u201d In that article, Hutchins focuses on the theology of his work, but not on Hakim\u2019s personal religious opinions.<\/p>\n Hutchins reports that, \u201cMany have wanted to label al-Hakim\u2019s work as secular, even though there are overt Islamic overtones in his writing.\u201d And I quote:<\/p>\n That there is any theology at all expressed in al-Hakim\u2019s literary works would be contested by secular, mainly non-Muslim scholars who\u2019ve wished to dismiss the religious or theological content of al-Hakim\u2019s works as, at most, some vague form of non-Muslim spirituality. This position has become increasingly untenable in recent years as al-Hakim\u2019s devoted book after book to theology of an overtly Islamic kind. It seems plain and retrospect that al-Hakim consistently sought to express certain Islamic spiritual ideals in his work. To deny this aspect of his literary works is in my opinion, to misunderstand them. To recognize the ideas expressed, but deny that they\u2019re Islamic would be to limit Islam to rigid fundamentalism and to stereotype one of the world\u2019s great religions.<\/p>\n And I love that Hutchins is bringing this up because often as Nabra and I are looking at archives, and they\u2019re looking at what different people\u2019s opinions are, there is often this western tradition of trying to wipe away things like Islam, or even Christianity in different aspects, but to wipe away things that are considered religious. And I think that they\u2019re sort of sterilizing things almost to make them more palatable, or to free someone like al-Hakim from what they\u2019re seeing as Orientalist problems. But actually, it\u2019s an Orientalist mind view, like a frame of mind to have to try to make someone more palatable to a Western audience, instead of really just digging into what\u2019s there and using what al-Hakim himself has written about his own work.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Exactly. Absolutely. And I think it\u2019s an element of flattening Islam to thinking that it can\u2019t be so multidimensional to have all of these complex opinions from within the confines or within the parameters of Islam. It\u2019s clear that Tawfiq al-Hakim is using Islamic theology in this particular play, and I\u2019m interested to see how that might be more subtle in his other plays, but this play, he\u2019s absolutely using them, for sure. But what Hutchins doesn\u2019t point out is that he might be using them as a criticism instead of a reinforcement or an expression of his spirituality. He might actually be bringing in a secular point of view as well. And honestly, my opinion about it\u2019s that he\u2019s criticizing it, because the lessons are so different from what\u2019s in the Qur\u2019an. So it must be viewed as something other than a religious imagining of this story, in my opinion.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Al-Hakim is also known to have used satire in his work to critique different political situations, like in his play The Sultan\u2019s Dilemma <\/em>where he\u2019s indirectly critiquing the government. This play could be another example of using satire and setting a piece in a different time and place to make a comment on the here and now, rather than the there and then, which is common in different times, especially depending on what the government is willing to listen to from artists.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>So to go back to this idea more generally about interpreting the Qur\u2019an into art. It\u2019s important to have a little bit of context behind this because I\u2019ve never heard any other adaptations of the Qur\u2019an in any art medium before this. And in my opinion, an adaptation of the Qur\u2019an would probably tread muddy waters, regardless of the point of view it\u2019s bringing into the art, because the Qur\u2019an is considered the direct and untranslated word of God. So it seems weird for someone to elaborate on that in any way. With such a short story, however, like People of the Cave,<\/em> that has so few details in the Qur\u2019an itself, naturally people think up details when hearing it, especially when we hear it a lot, at least in my experience. So this play does help to humanize the story and kind of better understand the People of the Cave through our imaginations. But I would think that an adaptation of a holy text by a follower of that religion would seek to reinforce the original lessons of the story, but that obviously does not seem to be the case in this play.<\/p>\n There\u2019s also a bit to be said about rules around idol worship, in that we\u2019re not allowed to depict any prophets or anything like that ever in Islam. And if you go into a mosque, you\u2019ll see a lot of beautiful calligraphy, you\u2019ll find these beautiful, and incredible geometric patterns and different ways to adorn the mosque itself, but never any images of people or animals. And that\u2019s because it\u2019s a caution against idol worship, that if there was any kind of holy image of a holy figure or an animal or anything, it could lead to worshiping that image itself almost like a deity. And so, with the People of the Cave<\/em>, the story, the people are just regular people, but it\u2019s interesting that in the play they\u2019re referred to as \u201csaints,\u201d which again, we would not in Islam want to portray any saints, holy figures, that could lead to worshiping of them as deities or next to God. And if you think about perhaps if there were promotional materials around this play, like posters, could that be seen as blasphemous depicting these holy people, even though they\u2019re not particularly prophets?<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>And this is definitely different in Eastern Orthodox Christianity where we would definitely refer to them as \u201csaints\u201d because that\u2019s how they\u2019re commemorated, and they\u2019re actually commemorated in October, saints in the Orthodox Church. So we also have icons in Orthodoxy. And so that\u2019s where we would venerate an icon that\u2019s the image of a saint. We\u2019re not worshiping the icon, but we venerating the saint who\u2019s created in the image of God and praying for them to intercede to God for us. So that\u2019s just one difference.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Absolutely. Yeah, it\u2019s definitely the most strict in Islam, and it\u2019s not that big of a deal again in People of the Cave<\/em>, but it\u2019s worth noting for sure. But in fact, there are actually two TV shows that we found about the people of the Cave. One of them is called, Musalsil Ahl El Kahf<\/em> [Series of People of the Cave<\/em>]m and one of them is called Ashab El Kahf<\/em> [People\/Owners of the Cave<\/em>], and the latter is a 1997 Persian TV show, which takes place in Rome, and in the play the people of the cave are specifically Christians. So it\u2019s interesting that there are some parallels in other adaptations that we later found out about of this particular story. And there\u2019s also a precedent for portraying holy people who are not prophets in The Message,<\/em> which is a film directed by Mustafa Akkad in 1976, which did not portray the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu alayhi wa-salla<\/em>), but did have actors playing several significant people like his wife and future khalifs.<\/p>\n Regardless of all that, this play is an adaptation of a classical text, which is the Qur\u2019an. And so in that way, regardless of its motives or its eventual lessons, it does hold a significant place in the MENA canon.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Okay, so let\u2019s talk about the MENA canon. One thing to note is it\u2019s really hard to get your hands on this play in English. In the book, The Essential Tawfiq al-Hakim<\/em>, which I have on my shelf, it contains four plays, at least two of which are short, and there\u2019s an excerpt from his novel and his autobiography, and then three short stories. I was able to find a few other pieces of his, like King Oedipus<\/em>, which is in a book of four Arab Oedipus plays. But I couldn\u2019t find the ones I really wanted to read, like People of the Cave,<\/em> Scheherazade,<\/em> and Pygmalion<\/em>. So Stanford and its library has People of the Cave<\/em> in Arabic, which reading is not that fulfilling for me yet, I would say in Arabic, especially in this very classical style, which is just difficult. And the font it\u2019s in is very hard to read. Imagine you were reading a Shakespearean text and everything is the curliest version of itself, and there\u2019s words you just don\u2019t recognize, and I couldn\u2019t find it anywhere in English. So I was looking everywhere, and there were no results coming up, and I truly felt gaslit by Google and all the other searches I was doing.<\/p>\n So, I finally reached out to a translator I know who teaches at AUC, the American University of Cairo, and she told me that Mahmoud El-Lozy had translated it. Amazing. So, I was finally able to type in, \u201cMahmoud El-Lozy\u201d as a translator and search results kept popping up, but I still couldn\u2019t access the play, but at least I was seeing that it existed. So I felt like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m reassured by this.\u201d And finally, I was able to get it through interlibrary loan, except that it was not the play by Mahmoud El-Lozy, like, that was translated by him. It was a hand typed book, which was someone\u2019s thesis at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana, and his name was Abder\u00adRahim Abu\u00adSwailem, which was great, and I enjoyed reading this immensely, but I was still on the hunt for the Mahmoud El-Lozy translation, which I finally got because a friend in Jordan was able to get it for me, and he got it to me this year. So the first version of this podcast would not have included the adaptation by Mahmoud El-Lozy. Mahmoud El-Lozy has since passed away, but very grateful for his contributions there. Allah yerhamu.<\/em><\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>You say that there\u2019s a way that you usually traditionally say that in Eastern Orthodoxy?<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yes. \u201cMay his memory be eternal.\u201d<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>There we go. Aww. And that whole thing though is such a wild story. When she first told me that, I was just amazed at the whole journey to find one script. So I guess I should respect her desires to re-record this. I\u2019m coming around to it by the end of this recording, after months of fighting.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yes, but very grateful to my friend Maen for his help with the play. Shukran<\/em>.<\/p>\n Learning about what has come before helps us learn about where we are, and there\u2019s this kind of lineage to see where we come from and how we understand cultural exchange has happened, as well as how some of that was forced with imperialism and colonialism.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Nabra: <\/strong>At the same time, I mean, even though it was such a wild story, such a wild ride, a part of me also wasn\u2019t too surprised to hear that it was super hard to find. And there are a few reasons for that. First of all, like you know, theatre is just really integral to Arab society, and it\u2019s been, throughout our history, a really important part of a lot of our cultures, and countries, and societies. And it\u2019s really responsive. It\u2019s about commenting on our present circumstances, whether that be political or reflecting on our situation as people. And it\u2019s really theatre of, and for, and by the people and for the moment. And so I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s really a lot throughout history of archiving of plays or even a desire to archive plays because they\u2019re talking about the people, having discussions, analyzing the world around you right now, and it\u2019s much more natural than the way that we consume theatre in the US, usually, for instance, where it\u2019s a whole event and you kind of have to plan it in advance. Theatre is essential to the way that we discuss our present circumstances in much of the Arab world, and that\u2019s been true throughout history.<\/p>\n There\u2019s also a bit of a lack of infrastructure in preserving theatre, specifically. I think about the place to go find, especially, plays translated into English would be the American University of Cairo. But AUC is really internationally known specifically for its archeology department, and of course it\u2019s Arabic languages department, instead of theatre department or its art departments, which, it\u2019s absolutely flourishing. The theatre at AUC is amazing. It\u2019s a great department, but again, the work they do is really responsive. It\u2019s more grassroots. It\u2019s for local audiences, and that\u2019s exciting. But I wonder whether the same amount of money and resources that\u2019s put into preserving these other departments work, the archeology work, of course, especially, is put into archiving within the theatre department. Especially in the 1930s when this play would\u2019ve been written down and translated.<\/p>\n But then of course, there\u2019s the point about censorship. The reason this play may have been so hard to find is that, even though it\u2019s secular and even possibly anti-religious themes are very subtle, Tawfiq al-Hakim could have still wanted to keep this out of popular distribution, or it could have been purposefully kept out of popular distribution. It may have been a very controversial play to see at the time. The way that he criticizes this religious story is subtle enough to be performable in the Muslim world, but it\u2019s still clear enough to possibly be prosecuted or banned if widely available. So self-censorship, or of course, forced censorship by the government or religious authorities may have been a reason for the lack of availability and access to a lot of ways like this one, since often theatre is used as a tool of resistance and to share controversial ideas.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yeah, and sometimes I wonder, is any of this because of the time that Tawfiq al-Hakim spent in France. He really wanted to establish the Egyptian theatre scene, and I wonder if he wanted the play to be distributed. But maybe it wasn\u2019t translated in English sooner, and maybe that\u2019s a reason that there was difficulty. We know that even when Mahmoud El-Lozy, who\u2019s a well-known translator, had translated, I still couldn\u2019t find it in the States. So there\u2019s this idea that maybe the West is so insular and only interested in things that are being produced by major producing bodies, and plays still have a certain credence if they\u2019re done on Broadway, Off-Broadway, et cetera. So yeah, there\u2019s this idea of the theatre canon, and the canon and how it\u2019s formed is sort of this elusive thing. But because it\u2019s been formed in a way that\u2019s now repeated by the way that people teach it, they teach it the way that\u2019s been taught to them, but also it\u2019s seen as reputable, and so the canon is sort of seen as the thing that people have put time into preserving. So it can be hard for a play like People of the Cave<\/em> to sneak in, especially because it brings up things that deal with multiple religions, and that may be something that people aren\u2019t taught how to teach or how to deal with.<\/p>\n In that vein, there\u2019s been a big push in many places to decolonize\u2014you know, decolonize pedagogy, decolonize their syllabi\u2014which is great. However, like I mentioned, I found that people who teach world theatre history often teach it like they were taught, meaning it starts with the Greeks, it skips to Shakespeare, and then they hang out in Europe for a bit. So if you\u2019re lucky, sometimes they\u2019ll hit Asia, usually China or Japan, and usually only one or two styles of theatre there. And this lineage even misses the Romans, which can really help you connect some of the dots. So you\u2019ll notice that we\u2019re entirely missing Africa in that description, the Middle East, Latin America, so many places.<\/p>\n And so this has us asking the question, \u201cWhy study theatre history?\u201d Well, one of the reasons is learning about what has come before helps us learn about where we are, and there\u2019s this kind of lineage to see where we come from and how we understand cultural exchange has happened, as well as how some of that was forced with imperialism and colonialism. And through that, we gain a better understanding of the world this way. Remember from earlier I talked about how one of Tawfiq al-Hakim\u2019s goals was to not merely take a story from the noble book and said it in dramatic form, but rather to look at Islamic mythology with the eyes of a Greek tragedy and bring about a fusion of the two mentalities in literature, the way that the Greeks have always done this and are seen as giants in world theatre history for that reason. And the Greeks connects us to Romans and so on.<\/p>\n So anyway, it\u2019s really interesting to see that Hakim realizes his work is in conversation with these things, and he wants to be in that conversation with other places and times and pieces. So we lose a lot by not including him in this lineage. I mean, as I mentioned, some of the other plays he wrote were Scheherazade, Pygmalion, Oedipus<\/em>. He adapted a lot of classics. And yeah, I think it\u2019s worth taking him up in these ways because we have these different worldviews, and we can learn a lot about Middle Eastern cultural contexts through this. So we can\u2019t decolonize the canon if we aren\u2019t finding these plays and bringing them into the canon. And if we\u2019re reading world theatre history, we have to ask what plays are we reading from the Middle East? If you\u2019re not reading any, it\u2019s not because they don\u2019t exist. It\u2019s because we don\u2019t have access to them yet, or they haven\u2019t made it onto that syllabus yet.<\/p>\n But now that we do have access to the El-Lozy translation, I want to add to this conversation a few things that Mahmoud El-Lozy, an Egyptian scholar and translator, wrote about People of the Cave<\/em>. He wrote that this play uses an allegory in the Qur\u2019an as, \u201cA parable of the truth of the Final Resurrection, as well as of the illusionary nature of life on this Earth. The Qur\u2019an gives no specific dates in places, but Edward Gibbons in the book, The Decline in Fall of the Roman Empire<\/em>, which was published in 1776, uses two anonymous Syriac writers as his sources, and he places the period of their persecution as taking place during the Emperor Decius,\u201d which we talked about in the Christian version.<\/p>\n And El-Lozy seems to think that al-Hakim was using both the Qur\u2019an and the Gibbon\u2019s account of the legend. The Qur\u2019an\u2019s story is really just the starting point of the play. And in El-Lozy\u2019s words, it becomes a \u201cmetaphysically abstract, tragic romance that is in no way seen as a dramatization of the Qur\u2019anic story,\u201d which I think is fascinating because Nabra and I really feel like we\u2019ve mined out these different versions of the Islamic and Christian stories here. So I wish that I could be in conversation with El-Lozy about this.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>And I think it\u2019s bizarre for him to say that, in a way, because again, of what we\u2019ve said about it\u2019s very clearly the same story. It\u2019s got that name. So yes, very curious as to what he means by that. But unfortunately, Allah yerhamu,<\/em> we won\u2019t be able to ask.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yeah, but that\u2019s where maybe what People of the Cave <\/em>episode part two will come in at some point because we definitely, I don\u2019t plan to stop thinking about this way anytime soon, especially because of this next information that\u2019s in the foreword or the preface to El-Lozy\u2019s translation. He said that this play was important in Egyptian drama because it was chosen as the opening production of the natural company in 1935 at the Opera House in Egypt, under the direction of Zaki Tulaymat. By all accounts, it was a resounding failure. And apparently in al-Hakim\u2019s introduction to Pygmalion<\/em>, he wrote about People of the Cave<\/em> saying, \u201cThis work\u201d\u2014People of the Cave<\/em>\u2014\u201cIs not fit for staging, or at least not fit for staging in the manner most people are accustomed to.\u201d I mean, it was his first play. I feel like al-Hakim really needs to cut himself a break here.<\/p>\n Apparently over time though, he tried to make it seem like he never wrote the play with the intention of having it staged. And he said, \u201cI create my theatre today from the minds, and I make the actors\u2019 ideas that move into the realm of the absolute, wearing the garb of symbols.\u201d<\/p>\n In 1960, People of the Cave<\/em>, again, was staged in Egypt under the direction of Nabil Al Alfi. Fuad Duara was a drama critic at the time, and he said that the production was, \u201cIntellectually, emotionally, and artistically entertaining,\u201d and he rejected the apparently lasting consensus at the time that the play was a resounding failure. But he also recognizes that, \u201cIts intellectual and abstract characteristics prevented from ever reaching a larger audience.\u201d El-Lozy writes that this play that he translated with an eye to the stage, meaning that he wasn\u2019t adhering to a strict, linguistically faithful translation, but he was trying to get as much of the intent and the meaning as he could out of the lines.<\/p>\n It is a great translation, and I really want to direct this play sometime soon. So if you are hiring, that would be great. Let me know.<\/p>\n I should also mention that there are different beliefs about where this cave was or is, actually. So there\u2019s one site that was in what is now Turkey, and then there\u2019s another in Jordan near Amman. And I actually got to visit the one in Amman last year. So I went with the vague hope that I could someday stage this play there, but it is right outside of a mosque, and seen as a very big religious site, and I had to be dressed as though I was entering a mosque to go there, meaning my hair was covered, etc. So I doubt that the Jordanian Ministry of Tourism would be really interested in my play, but maybe someday just at a different site.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>So if you are interested in either making some international trouble\/scandals or alternately are perhaps one of the many, many, many US or Western theatres that are claimed to really, really love classic plays, this is a great option y\u2019all, to stop doing only white writers. Congratulations. Here you go. And you even have a director.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>Yes. Well, yeah. I was really hoping to do it in like a like\u2026 Palestinian older homes look sort of cave-ish. And so there\u2019s one in the top of Beit Jala that I really wanted to use and do the play there. But given everything that\u2019s happening right now, that does not feel like the appropriate play choice, but Inshallah someday.<\/p>\n Okay, so if you\u2019ve made it this far, fifty-five minutes into the episode, thank you so much for joining us, for digging into this really exciting and important play. There are so many things that it brings to the table, and it was just so exciting to analyze it, and think through it together with Nabra and now with you as our intellectual interlocutor.<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>And we\u2019ll end with this; we need to make more of an effort to find and read these classical MENA and African plays because colonization and Eurocentrism has purposefully buried and disregarded our art. But going through the arduous process that Marina went through is part of the fight against these systemic forces that seek to erase and disempower our cultures.<\/p>\n Marina: <\/strong>This podcast is produced as a contribution to HowlRound Theatre Commons. You can find more episodes of Kunafa and Shay<\/em> and other HowlRound podcasts by searching \u201cHowlRound\u201d wherever you find podcasts\u201d If you loved this podcast, please post a rating and write a review on your platform of choice. This helps other people find us. You can also find a transcript for this episode along with a lot of other progressive and disruptive content on the howlround.com website. Have an idea for an exciting podcast essay or TV event the theatre community needs to hear? Visit howlround.com and contribute your ideas to the Commons. Yalla,<\/em> bye!<\/p>\n Nabra: <\/strong>Yalla<\/em>, bye.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n
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